Runner's Forum: The Official: Training Summary Start Up Thread

ex-k1w1: on the subject of long runs and pace, I've become a believer in shorter and quicker. We keep all of our long runs a little shorter, 14-16mi, but we do them at a very high intensity (except for during base training where we keep it relaxed). My long runs are usaully less than a min slower than tempo pace, usually about 5:10 on tempos and 6:00+/- (usually less) on long runs. However i would only recommend it if you are an experienced runner and know exactly what pace you can handle. Of course this is for the 10k on down but probably not what you should do for the marathon.

KDogg:  Enjoy your race tomorrow.  Run the first 2/3 with your head and the last 1/3 with your heart.

All the best!

lexb. kdogg, and all who are racing this weekend goodluck!!!

rest day for me today,.can use it after 5 hilly days,.last couple days hav been really humid,. weather man callin for rain tommorrow,. so that should be fun,.oh well,.could rain on marathon so i guess its good training,.shooting for 12 tommorrow and 22 -24 sunday,.

will be looking forward to resting the legs sunday afternoon , and throwing down a cold one while watching a couple games,. "go steelers"!!

 

well I ran the race tonight and it didn't go as expected. I saw the course description and it said 'flat and fast'. I get there and its rolling hills and tons of turns and on top of that it had rained all day yesterday - so it was a true cross country experience, haha. Anyway, since I'm unattached I have to line up behind everyone else (this race didn't allow unattached runners to officially compete).

Everyone's times were slow, so I'm not even gonna bother to report my time. I ended up 8th. I figured I was gonna win, but I wasn't aggressive enough when I needed to be. I was actually in contention for most of the race. But during the last 1.5k I was waiting on the leaders to come back, and they were, but not to the extent I needed. With 2k to go I was probably five seconds out of the lead and ended up finishing 25 seconds out (my kick sucks). 

If I take over halfway and push the pace, I think I would have finished better. But I let the leaders get a couple steps on me so that opportunity wasn't available.

The fact I haven't raced cross country in a couple years definitely showed today. The result wasn't what I wanted, but all things considered I'm not too upset with it. Now I know whereabouts I stand in terms of fitness and what I need to work on.

good luck everyone else

8k Tan Time Trial handicap today.  Ran off 8 minutes (the handicapper is working off a base time of 45 mins) based on my last outing.  Felt much stronger today and finished with a clock time of 43:22.  (Elapsed time of 35:22).  More importantly, I felt really strong heading up that bloody hill and was very pleased to be able to negative split.

chiggy - thanks for the feedback.  I'm always looking to learn more about training methods and practices and endeavour to keep up with the latest info.  Out of curiosity, how do you keep track of your pace while training?  I ask because I see a lot of schedules calling for stuff like "run 2 miles at 10s per mile slower than your most recent 10k pace" etc.  Without running on a measured course, how the hell are you supposed to figure that sort of pace?

LexB - Note the fine print.  LSD is not the answer; lots of training at or close to your best aerobic effort is.  LSD (Long Slow Distance) does little for your conditioning as it is largely wasted effort.

 

 fricster,

   Here's my two cents:

    It's certainly not wasted effort if you're going for your first marathon. The goal is to build up stamina and get your body used to running 26 miles. Once you've done that and are truly comfortable running such a distance, you can think about cutting down your time (if that's what you want).

    At that point, you can start thinking about training for time and keeping track of the intricate measurements re: pace, percentage of maximum aerobic effort, etc.

   It depends on how competitive you want to be, or if you simply want to run for fun.

ex-k1w1: I could not disagree more with regard to the LSD.  I have read many running books by the greatest running coaches in America.  The most recent was by the Coach and Exercise Physiologist Jack Daniels, Ph.d.  All of them seem to be unanimous in recommending an easy, conversational pace for your weekly long runs.  The faster paces should be reserved for different types of runs (Daniels includes Threshold Pace; Race Pace; Interval Pace and Tempo Pace, Strides and Sprints).  As long as you are doing proper speed work and Hill work, your weekly long run, at an easy pace, certainly is no waste of time.  20-milers, for example, at race pace, should be reserved for the race, not your training.  No medals are given for training.

According to the experts, as long as it's balanced with speed work, LSD does wonders for conditioning.

That's just my 2 cents.

speaking personally regarding this long slow run malarky... and the point I was trying to make in my last post... there is so much disagreement in how you should train that it's terribly confusing. I have only been running 'seriously' (yet purely for fun) since March. At the moment my long runs are only just breaking 10 miles. My pace is increasing but so far my PB is a 7:30pace for a 5k. I don't think at my level right now it is worth sweating over optimal training. I go to a running club every week and am now in the intermediate group so that is introducing me to different types of training (intervals, fartleks, speed work, etc) and is helping me establish and understand my technique and my pace. It's providing me with a sound base. On top of that I am following a basic 1/2 marathon plan  - which is mainly intervals  sessions, easy runs and long runs.

What I was trying to say re: effort levels is that I don't have a heart monitor I do what feels right. I know that if I try and do a 10 miler I can't go out 'all out' (putting in max or near to best effort) as I simply won't make it. I have to go out a little easier. By the same token I can't just go slow and steady as I just naturally seem to push harder. For the time being I am happy with this. I am not pushing myself to the point of injury or over-exertion but I am pushing myself enough to know that I am getting a CV work out and increasing my stamina. 

I really appreciate everyone's input in this, but I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, it entirely depends on the runner and your personal physiology. So right now I will just do what feels right and err on the side of caution.

Just kickboxing this morning... good session, a lot of fun. Today is a day of rest and carbohydrates before the race tomorrow! Maybe I'll throw in a hot bath and some extra stretching!

LexB:

Just go out and enjoy yourself.  Running really isn't that difficult.  If the pace feels too tough, back off.  If you feel you aren't challenging yourself, increase the pace a little.  Just listen to your body and enjoy your runs.

KDogg:

Even in Daniels' Elite Marathon Program, the vast majority of the long runs are at E (easy) Pace. The execptions are a few T (Threshold) runs of 8 miles and 8 mile runs at M (Marathon) pace.  If you check Daniels' formula, even for elite athletes, any run over 8 miles is at E (easy) pace. I read every word of his book.  He stresses over and over again that no matter what your fitness level, your long run should be at an easy pace (of course easy means different paces for different people).  Lex mentioned this as an area of disagreement, but not among the experts.  Hal Higdon and Jeff Galloway give the same advice.  That is enough evidence for me.

Quoting from "Daniels' Running Formula" Page 98-99: "The Long Run is a steady run performed at E (easy) pace. Easy pace should be a comfortable, conversational pace.  Set a long run goal of 25-30% of your total weekly mileage.  Easy runs, long runs, and (for some runners) marathon pace runs are all beneficial to the development of important physiological attributes that stay with you and don't demand high intensity stress to achieve.  These types of training produce direct benefits and also contribute to the overall building of resistance to injury and to a solid foundation (base) on which to build faster training sessions in the future.  These runs are good opportunities to reap substantial benefits from relatively low-stress training.  They're almost always enjoyable to do.  The benefits of easy and long runs stay with you; profit from them, then move on to other training."

haha rpetreccajr, unless the field makes a huge regression, you won't be seeing me up front this next May. Depending on how training goes, I think the best I could do is maybe 1:07:xx which is assuming I continue to improve at a steady rate. We'll see how the Monumental half (another race in the Indianapolis area for those who haven't heard of it) goes first, haha. 

Gilly, see pages 264-266 - Daniels Running Formula 2nd Edition

Week 7: 2m E (easy) pace, 6m M (marathon) pace, 1m T (threshold) pace, 5m M pace, 1m T, 1m M, 2m E

Week 8: 2m E, 3m T, 1m E, 3m T, 2m E

Week 9: 18m E

Week 10: 2m E, 8m M, 1m T, 4m M, 1m T, 2m M, 2m E

Week 11: 2m E, 2x2m T (w/ 2:00 rest), 1 hour E, 3m T, 2m E

Week 12: 20m E

Week 13: 4m E, 8m M, 1m T, 6m M, 1m T, 2m E

Week 14: 2m E, 4m T, 10m E, 2x2m T (w/ 2:00 rest), 2m E

Week 15: 20m E

Week 16: 6m E, 2x(6m M + 1m T) 2m E

Week 17: 2m E, 4m T, 10m E, 4m T, 2m E

Week 18: 22m E

Week 19: 8m E, 8m M, 1m T, 4m M, 1m T, 1m M (also see Q2 workout you run 15m at T pace with at least 3-4m of E pace)

Week 20: 2m E, 4m T, 10m E, 4m T, 2m E

Week 21: 22m E

Week 22: 6m E, 2x(6m M +1m T), 2m E

Week 23: 2m E, 3x(2m T w/ 2:00 E rest), 10m E

Week 24: 90:00 E

Out of his 18 Q1 workouts, (in this case, Daniels is using a Q1 workout as a long run) 12 of them are faster paced (2/3 of them if you only count the time you should be running fast or half of them if you count the six weeks of base training). This is evidence enough that Daniels thinks some quality can be incorporated into long runs and that it works (particularly if you look at the elite runners he trains). 

As I said, its my belief that you probably shouldn't be doing a faster long run every week, but provided you can recover from it it might be a good idea to throw these kind of workouts into your training on occasion.

Personally I haven't had any experience with this kind of stuff, so take my suggestion to possibly incorporate it with a grain of salt. The closest I have came to this is a Vigil long run (1/3 easy, 1/3 moderately paced, 1/3 faster paced) which seemed to work out alright and was easy enough for me to recover from. (for those interested, Greg McMillan also recommends that particular type of run)

Hi all,

A new PR for me today - I ran 28.2kms my longest run yet. I actually feel quite sore and stiff today, which is different to last weeks long run. I took a cold bath with mineral salts, and have been in compression for my calves - but I reckon tomorrow will be a challenge.

it took us 2hrs 44mins to get around - I was pleased with that.

I hope everyone had a great weekend of running. Rest day for me tomorrow,

 

Wow. I've been so busy with classes that I haven't had time to log on here in a couple weeks it seems like. I logged on and saw that there were 108 new posts from the last time i had posted....That's awesome! It's so great to see everyone posting on here all the time and remembering how great it feels to be among a group of people who just love to run. Although i haven't posted or logged anything in a while, i HAVE been keeping up with my running. My roommate decided to start running with me too which is great!! We run Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday mornings at 5:30 which is hard, being the college students that we are, but great. I have mostly stuck with my 2.1 miles, but Friday I did 3.1 and this week I think I'm going to up it to 3.1 miles every day, and start upping my mileage from there. The weekends are rough becuase I definitely don't have the motivation to get up and run. but we at least do SOMEthing on the weekends, whether its walking or yoga or something. Thanks to everyone who continues to post on a regular basis on here! Ya'll are GREAT.

Well it's been a while since I posted. training has been pretty messy the last couple of weeks. But I think I have turned things around. I didn't manage any runs while I was away from work. so all in all I missed about 50kms of running due to sickness/travel. 

 17km run thursday in a hilly(ish) area.

18km dead flat marathon pacer on Sat.

 Today (Sunday) 34kms at whatever pace felt comfortable. that is my last 20 miler for the program and I am extremely happy to have come this far.

 Pappypage... I notice a few niggles in my left knee and my lower back. So I think you are right. with the mileage, comes the potential for injury. But I think I might just make it too the start line.

gfinklede: That trully sucks about the calf. But you still have some time on your hands.  As I undestand it, melb marathon is October...Maybe the enforced lay off is just what you need(ed). It'll take a while before you loose 10 months of training I should imagine. Just remember, that you have to just kiss those kms you missed goodbye (easier said than done!). You can't get them back. Now you just have to focus on getting yourself to the start line in one piece!!!

20 mile long run. I finished up with some faster paced running (5:15-5:25/mi) for about ten minutes at the end, going fast actually felt better than going slow.

So since I have started getting into classes and stuff like that I had to consolidate all of my mileage into one run a day. This past week was my first week doing that and I am proud to say I hit 100 miles on seven runs - Mark Wetmore (the coach at Colorado) would be proud. (even though he has recently changed his training philosophy to incorporate two-a-days)

WOW - that discussion on training methods certainly kept the "pace" of info hot!  I make no claims to being an expert myself, although I may seem to be putting myself across as one.  I do try to keep up with the latest trends, but having seen a lot of those same trends come and go over the years, I don't always put a lot of faith in them.  More importantly I guess, all runners interested in how to improve their lot should find out as much as they can about their chosen sport, but don't let it become an obsession!  Running should be enjoyable.  It (mostly) is for me.

SimmoT - for some reason I thought your marathon was also in October.  Good luck with the taper.

Today was an easy run day for me, just over 7km in just under 40 mins.

14 mile run over the weekend, done in a respectable time (for me) of 2:12.  My girlfriend came out with me for the first 6, which helped me get into nice rhythm.  The last part was also good, minus a calf cramp around mile 12.  Not having enough to drink is a rookie mistake, and I was kind of mad at myself, but got through it anyway.  

Mile 12 of my run was fun b/c it took me through the National Zoo.  If you've never had howler monkeys and parakeets cheering you on, you are missing out. 

KDogg - I work for a private company, not a firm, so my hours are actually decent.  I'm not doing nearly the mileage that you are, so two runs after work during the week and a long run on Sunday are not hard to manage.  I'm not suggesting that you turn down a lucrative job offer, but if running is that imporant to you, choose a job that allows you time to pursue your passions. 

 

Hey folks, well my race yesterday went really well. The route was beautiful, there were a couple of tough hills but on the whole it was pretty flat and fast. My aim was to pace myself as much as possible. About one third in my calf muscles felt a little stiff but that wore off, felt a little fatigued at the 2/3 mark but waffed a Gu and some powerade and shook it off. I held a steady pace for the first half and began to pick up in the second with a burst about 3/4 in on a slow downhill. Most people were serious runners, so it was pretty tough being overtaken quite a bit, had to really battle some competitive demons there but I did and held my pace.
I came in at 1:06:21 (14km) which was about 10mins faster than I thought I would, at an overall pace of 7:37. It's a lot faster than I had aimed for and I was pretty tired at the end but I think I did pace myself and I am really happy with the result. More so that I came 2nd in my division (F24-29). WAHEY! I would NEVER have thought I would come second in my class, that's incredible.

So I'm a very happy (yet slightly stiff) bunny!

KDogg:  100 miles in 7 Days, how did that break down by day?  That is remarkable, especially with no double-run days.

Giggles: Welcome Back!

Ex:  I agree.  Just have fun!!!

 

  Great Job, Lex.

  It's amazing how everyone runs faster on race day. And the fact that you paced yourself well proves you trained well.

 

 

Gilly - 13m easy, 14m (4m workout with a long warm up/down), 15m medium long run, 10m easy, 15m (4m race, then 6x1000 at tempo pace afterwards with a long warm up/down), 13m easy and 20m long run

I'm to the point where 10 miles isn't that much anymore. I'm also to the point where I'm getting kind of bored with running all of these miles by myself, but there are no fast runners around here that have similar schedules that I can train with. I need to find a girl who wants to ride her bike while I run, that'd be amazing

I took today off because it was raining pretty hard and it has started to get cold, plus I wanted to get a little bit ahead. I've been feeling a little sick from thursday's run in the rain, friday's race/workout, saturday's football game/party, and sunday's long run.

 

KDogg - That is a great week of running. I can't approach anything like that here until the weather cools some.  I did 10 miles today admid 80 degree weather with 90% humidity.  Think of it: it was 80 degrees at 5:00 AM.  What part of the country are you in, where the weather is already starting to turn cold? 

I was watching Monday Night Football last night, and the announcer mentioned it was 50 degrees in Green Bay.  I thought, "that would be perfect running weather."  I guess it evens out though, cause in January, I'll be running in great weather, when they will be snowed or iced in.

ericjacquie - You are really doing well.  Congrats and keep it up!

 

 2.5 mile fast run today...17 min, 10 sec.

   gotta get a lot in...snow in seven weeks.  :-(

 

Gilly - yea, I go to Notre Dame, so I'm kinda far up north...It is pretty good training weather here for now, but as you said later in the winter its gonna be brutal, luckily we have an oversized indoor track and decent treadmills. However, I prefer very hot weather for my own training, as it doesn't really affect my ability to go long (only to go fast).

pappypage, haha. Today for my cool down I was going super slow and I was running around the lakes (probably the most popular place on campus to run) and I had to kind of speed up to make sure I was going to get passed by any girls. 

I did a workout today. 6x1200m with 2:30 rest between each rep. My legs needed something a little faster than tempo running, but still longer than 400s. I wanted to hit around 4:55/mi pace for each one (roughly 3:41 per 1200m). Turns out I ran pretty well: 3:43, 3:39, 3:43, 3:43, 3:41, 3:38. I was recovering really well between each rep, my heart rate was back around 120 bpm within 30 seconds after finishing each repso next time I do something like this I need to take less recovery between each rep. 

Still a good enough workout for me today, I was happy. 

Pretty lame session tonight, the run club clinics started again so rejoined the intermediates. We went straight in on a hills session which wasn't too bad but I did not feel good. Muscles still tired from the race (and kickboxing this morning) and just had nothing in the tank. No energy whatsoever. Had my ass kicked by a couple of newcomers which I didn't like so much. Not even my competitive streak and the coach snarking at me could get my arse into gear. Oh well, chalk it up to experience I guess!

Kdogg - good luck with the bike chick. My chap's a mountain biker not a runner I keep trying to get him to come along on my runs on his bike to pace me, but I don't think he really digs that. No mountains, no jumps, not enough downhill and not enought speed probably.